[00:00:00] Dr Stef: If you would, wouldn't mind just kind of telling us a little bit about yourself
[00:00:05] Laura Kinde: and, and what you do.
[00:00:07] Absolutely. So my name is Laura Kendi. I'm a family law attorney. I'm here in the Central Park area but serve the entire front range but my office is located in Central Park. I have been an attorney for, gosh, 11 years now, and I do.
[00:00:26] The first 10 the Boulder County D. A. 's office doing sexual assault prosecutions and a couple years ago shifted to family law and took a bunch of my experience in litigation and trials and trial experience into my family law practice where I deal with high conflict and, you know, not high conflict, but kind of focus on high conflict divorces.
[00:00:52] Dr Stef: Yeah. Yeah. And so you were the prosecuting attorney, right? And so you were like, I don't, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know how it's probably like us talking about, you know, physicians talking about ER and what happened. Yeah. And then, so you were putting the sex offenders away like that. Okay. And then you said your partner,
[00:01:17] Laura Kinde: what does your partner.
[00:01:19] He was a major crimes and drug DA, so he did very similar kind of level cases as I did but more like really serious assaults. Homicides and then like the big drug cases where it was like, you know, multiple different kind of people working together, kind of like the COCA, RICO, so Organized Crime Act type cases.
[00:01:46] That's intense. Yeah. It blocks the litigation experience. I think we've done over 170 jury trials.
[00:01:55] Dr Stef: So how do you feel that that, like, helps you in family law, like, how does that translate? It's
[00:02:04] Laura Kinde: huge. I mean, two, in two kind of main ways. First of all, a lot of family law attorneys are really kind of know how to negotiate the cases and, you know, but don't know the trial skills.
[00:02:18] And we start all of our cases from a place of if we can resolve this amicably, that's better for everyone. It's better for everyone's you know, co parenting in the future or getting along in the future. But it's also expensive if we can resolve this without a hearing and that's in everyone's best interest too.
[00:02:38] So we try to negotiate cases first, but we also know how to take the cases to hearings and trials if that's where they end up. And I think always having that in your back pocket gives you a lot of confidence when you're in the negotiation stages because you know that if push comes to shove and negotiations fail, that you can take the case to trial and not be scared about what that looks like, or you know, scared of not being able to meet the procedural requirements, which are pretty intense in family law, if that, if the negotiations do fail and fall apart.
[00:03:11] Dr Stef: Wow. And so what, if you knew we're talking to somebody who is considering going into divorce and maybe it was already kind of a high conflict situation, like, do you have any advice for someone who's like, Even before the stages of going into divorce. That might end up, you know, because there are definitely a lot of women who are in traumatic abusive situations.
[00:03:40] And the idea of leaving is, is daunting. So do you have any
[00:03:46] Laura Kinde: advice that you give? Absolutely. The main thing I mean, I would say is reach out to an attorney early. You know, even our office offers free consults. A lot of family law attorneys offer free consults, but reach out to an attorney early so that we can have at least those initial conversations about what your specific situation is and start to plan, start to figure out what are the things we need to, we need to know about, you know, whether it's financial information or.
[00:04:12] specific documents that we're going to recommend that you try to get out of the house some way, whether it's setting up housing for once you, you know, tell your, your spouse that you're, you know, leaving and we want to make sure you have, you have housing and you know what that looks like, or, you know, kind of planning on what's going to happen with the kids.
[00:04:30] Cause temporary orders, you know, that could be. Eight weeks, 12 weeks down the road from when you file. And if you have a really, really high conflict situation and you have a situation where both parents have full custody, that can end up being a really, really tumultuous, really stressful time. So just really trying to plan for your specific situation as early as possible and come up with kind of, you know, the plan and then the backup plan and what everything looks like.
[00:05:00] You know, if plan a fails, what is plan B look like? What's our plan C, you know, and no just kind of have that, that roadmap of what those next, those first few weeks are going to look like. Post kind of letting the other person know what the divorce is. And then just, yeah, getting the information that you need, that you have access to at that point, that you might not have access once you let the other person know that you're, you're going this route.
[00:05:24] Dr Stef: Right. Yeah, you're speaking my language. I love having a plan A, B, C, D, and E. Exactly, like as many backup plans as we can come up with and are feasible. Then I'll go this, then I'll go that. Exactly. You know, take out as much uncertainty of it as you can, but there's always going to be that level of uncertainty that you just don't know how the other person is going to respond or react or, or anything like that.
[00:05:52] Laura Kinde: 100%. I think my clients get a lot of I like to just kind of like talk through it with him, you know, almost like just a brainstorming session of like, what is this going to look like? What do you think the different ways that, you know, he might react are like, do you, and just talking through kind of each of those.
[00:06:10] So we have a really good idea of where we're, where we're going to go, no matter what happens. And it might not be what you want to want to occur. It might not be the best option, but at least we've talked about it. At least we know where we're headed from that moment on.
[00:06:24] Dr Stef: That's great. Now, I've always kind of heard this rumor, and I don't know if it's true, that you should talk to kind of more than one lawyer, like a few, and that if you reached out to a lawyer, then that other person can't use that lawyer.
[00:06:40] Is that true? Or is that just a, a rumor? It's,
[00:06:45] Laura Kinde: it's pretty true. If you've done a consult with someone that they can't. So if I have someone come in and do a consult with me, and then they decide not to hire me for whatever reason, And their spouse calls me up a week later, I can't represent the spouse, just because there is some privilege that is established, even though it's pretty minor.
[00:07:04] There's a privilege that's established during that first initial consult. That being said, I do always recommend that people talk to at least a couple attorneys, because I think having an attorney that you jive with and that you get along with, and that you speak the same language, and that you feel comfortable with.
[00:07:23] is extremely important. And I'm not going to be that person for every single client, you know, and I want to make sure that my clients feel comfortable talking with me and that they feel that they're getting the best support for them that they possibly can. So I do always recommend, you know, kind of chatting with a couple of different attorneys.
[00:07:41] That being said, I don't usually recommend doing the like call around and talking to a million different. Attorneys and doing, you know, 27 consults so that you can block your, your spouse from getting someone the family law market is really saturated and they're going to find someone and that's just spinning your own wheels, you know, just unnecessarily.
[00:08:03] But do you talk to a couple of people so that you make sure that whatever attorney you end up with is A good fit for you and that you're going to feel comfortable with them throughout the potentially year long process. We're longer longer. Yeah, exactly. You're long until 8 years. I mean,
[00:08:21] Dr Stef: I know, right? What, what would you recommend that people like?
[00:08:28] What kind of questions should they ask a potential divorce attorney to figure out if they're the right fit for them? Do you have any suggestions for that?
[00:08:40] Laura Kinde: Absolutely. I think the, the big one that I recommend There's a couple but one of them is what type of tactic they take. So like I kind of said at the beginning we try to resolve all cases amicably and if they don't work.
[00:08:55] If the amicable kind of resolution doesn't work then we do kind of very quick you know as soon as we realize that's not the option we pivot to preparation for a hearing a contested hearing in front of a judge. There's some attorneys who are going to try to negotiate the case as long as possible, and that's fine too.
[00:09:16] You know, that's just a different route. There's other attorneys and there's a couple of the, the bigger firms kind of in the Denver Metro area that take the like attack approach and they will not negotiate. They are setting it for a hearing, you know, they're, they come into mediation with these crazy requests and then they set it for hearings right away.
[00:09:36] And next thing you know, everyone's paying 20, 000 minimum. You know, if not way, way, way, way, way more depending on the situation. And there was never really a, a true good faith discussion about, you know, what could be resolved. And I always think. You know, you know your situation, you know, you're soon to be ex spouse and what they're going to be like, you know, you're never 100% ready for what that person may or may not do during a divorce case, but I think people usually have at least some intuition about what it's going to look like.
[00:10:11] And I think hiring a person who's kind of theory about how they deal with cases works with how you think your divorce is going to go, but also can be flexible if it doesn't go that way. The other thing I think that's really important is communication and what their communication style is. Some attorneys, you call them and you're, you know, talking directly to them.
[00:10:31] Others you call and you talk to a paralegal and most of your communication is going to be through a paralegal. Others, you're even one step more, you know, removed. Some are only email, you know what? So whatever you feel comfortable with I, I think there's, there, each one is okay for different people. We very much take the approach of you have kind of direct access to your, your attorney.
[00:10:54] We also work like a team approach on all of our cases. So both me and my partner, Mark. are going to be involved with every step of every single case. And so you always have kind of two people plus our, our office staff that you can get in touch with. And if that's, you know, and that's good for some people, but other people want kind of the more, like, I'm going to call the secretary, I'm going to make an appointment and, you know, have that appointment and it's just kind of knowing what the communication style is and knowing what that expectation is.
[00:11:21] Oh, I think that's great. And I think
[00:11:23] Dr Stef: I know which big law firm you're talking about because I
[00:11:29] believe that was the one that has a really bad
[00:11:34] Laura Kinde: reputation.
[00:11:35] Dr Stef: I would, I would be interested to know if it was the same. Yeah, .
[00:11:41] Laura Kinde: Absolutely.
[00:11:42] Dr Stef: I know my my attorney was very much like, I think she was the only lawyer in her attor in her group, and she had some paralegals, but yeah, it was direct contact with her and and I really did appreciate that, especially in the beginning when, when I was sending her like every single email, text, , , every day.
[00:12:03] Yeah, exactly. Like snapshots. She's like, But yeah, I had definitely had direct access to her. So so that's great. What kind of services do you guys offer at your law firm? Because I think we've mentioned like the unbundled type stuff, which I think is really cool.
[00:12:25] Laura Kinde: We offer obviously full service cases you know, with the kind of typical approach where it's a retainer and an hourly fee, but we also offer unbundled services.
[00:12:35] So if you want someone to help you with the petition, if you want someone to review a separation agreement or parenting plan before you sign off on it, If you want someone to help you through mediation, you know, we're willing to kind of do those small pieces without taking on the whole case. We also do consulting.
[00:12:53] So if you have a situation where you want to do it pro se, but you want to just be able to double check with people different ideas, talk through different parenting plans just make sure that kind of the way it's going is okay. We, we do that too. And so we usually, on the consulting ones, we have like an initial kind of meeting where we talk about, you know, how, give them kind of a roadmap, talk about the different financials and that need to be disclosed and just kind of talk about.
[00:13:24] What to expect along the way. And then they reach out to us as they have questions and, you know, some people reach out with like smaller questions often, and other people will schedule a meeting, you know, every month or two to just talk about like where they are right now and what's kind of the next step and where they go.
[00:13:42] The nice part about that is if at any point, kind of the. amicable divorce falls apart. We already have a good idea of what's going on. And it's really easy for us to kind of switch to like a full representation for a hearing if that's what's needed kind of at the end. So we offer all different types of services where we really want to work with people and we really want to help people out as much as possible.
[00:14:10] So we offer. Payment plans and you know, payment plans for the retainer, payment plans for the fees. We offer whatever we can to make it, to make it work.
[00:14:20] Dr Stef: That's awesome. And I, like, how do you feel? I know sometimes I'll hear people saying, well, we're going to go through mediation and not use lawyers, like.
[00:14:31] At all. And that always kind of gives me heart palpitations. Do you always think that people should at least kind of run it by a lawyer, even if they are doing a mediation that's the, you know, seems amicable?
[00:14:46] Laura Kinde: Yes, I absolutely recommend at least, and it's not just because it's my job. I've just seen things load and brought into something on a motion to modify or a motion to.
[00:14:58] A change of settlement agreement, you know, later that I'm like, Oh, this is, this is so why did you give up so much, right? Exactly. And while like mediators as a whole I love I think they do an amazing job and they, they do, they do help out the process dramatically. I think that sometimes certain mediators, not all of them, the person who kind of barks the loudest sometimes will, they just want to give in.
[00:15:27] They just want to get that to stop. So sometimes if you have someone who's kind of willing to give things up, they might be easier to deal with. They might be able to push them a little bit more and they don't have any duty to be like representing either party because they're, they're a neutral mediator.
[00:15:45] So I highly, highly recommend at least. You know, if you can't afford or you don't want, or you think it will escalate the whole divorce, having full representation, at least talk to someone, at least get run things by an attorney. And that's where those consulting and unbundled services are really, really, really helpful because it can keep the costs really low, but still make sure you're protecting yourself, your assets, your kids, you know, whatever it is.
[00:16:13] Dr Stef: And because I think to a lot of people might think that going into mediation that it has to be like a one time thing like one and done and like, but, but that's not the case right like so you could start one day go for however many hours and then take a pause, and then. Talk to
[00:16:35] Laura Kinde: a lawyer about it and then go back like exactly and I always recommend I'm kind of my unbundled or my consulting clients that like go into mediation piece by piece, you know, like, what are we going to deal with today and try to deal with like one piece at a time.
[00:16:51] I think when you have an attorney, you can maybe try to do the more marathon mediations. Because. We speak the language. We know what's going to happen in court. We're able to prep you ahead of time and prepare you for what might happen. But when you don't have that, I recommend like one small piece at a time.
[00:17:09] So schedule an hour and a half long mediation where you're going to talk about the house. And figure out what's going to go on with the house. And then, you know, do a couple hour long one where you're going to talk about the parenting time only, you know, and kind of try to figure out what that is going to be.
[00:17:24] So just, you know, whatever your situation is, do it piece by piece. And then, you know, maybe you can have kind of one at the end that fills in all the gaps, but don't try to try, try to do everything at once. And. Yeah. Definitely just run something by an attorney before you agree. Yeah,
[00:17:40] Dr Stef: I think that's, that's definitely something that I hope people, you know, listen to and, and make sure that they do get a lawyer's opinion when it comes to, before signing any, any documents.
[00:17:54] Laura Kinde: Agree. Yeah. Just have us look it over, have us review. You know, we, we know kind of the standard conditions, we know what things look like. Obviously, every financial situation is really, really different. But, you know, it doesn't take us a lot to really make sure that, you know, it's not outrageous, you know, kind of, yeah, we might not
[00:18:16] Dr Stef: be spending that maybe 500.
[00:18:18] Yeah, save you from the 20, 000 exactly. Yeah, save you from that or, or down the line that, you know, realizing that you didn't have to pay that much and whatever child support alimony, you know, exactly having
[00:18:35] Laura Kinde: us run it through the calculators, having us know the different things that can be factored in all of that.
[00:18:39] I think those, those quick conversations with us can really help, help save a lot.
[00:18:45] Dr Stef: Oh, that's awesome. Now, when you have a client, do you have like, kind of the standard things that you tell your clients to do or kind of a standard little, like, here's
[00:19:00] Laura Kinde: how it feels? I mean, the first thing I always start with in any divorce case is it's going to get worse before it gets better.
[00:19:07] It's going to get harder. This, this process. It's long, it's emotional, it's drawn out, it is going to get worse before it gets better. So I kind of always start by going through that. You know, and then obviously there's like the legal spiel I have to give of the don't move any major assets, you know, don't move the kids out of state, you know, like those types of things that I legally have to go through to make sure to protect, you know, Protect the client.
[00:19:35] But then, you know, the, the big thing that I start to talk about with them is, you know, what, what do they envision this looking like? What do they, and the, the good, the bad and the ugly, like, do they envision this being a knockdown drag out? Do they envision, you know, co parenting being an issue? Do they, you know, what kind of, Are there concerns?
[00:19:55] And then really kind of working through all of those very specifically. So the general spiel is usually just kind of the legal stuff in that this is going to be hard. I talk a lot about support options. I talk a lot about things like divorce coaching, making sure you have a good support system.
[00:20:12] You know, whoever that is, friends, family, divorce coaches, therapists. Yeah, workers, whatever that support system is to make sure that, you know, as much as possible we've got, you know, my client is, you know, really supported throughout this whole process as, as much as they possibly can.
[00:20:31] Dr Stef: That there is kind of a team support to it or approach to it and it's not just you and the clients and like, exactly.
[00:20:42] Do you have like certain go to resources that you tend to use a lot, especially in like high conflict. Cases,
[00:20:52] Laura Kinde: you know, yes and no. So I, I have some some therapists that I definitely like specifically recommend. And we're, you know, we'll send a lot of people to, because I think I've, I've seen really good results when people go to them.
[00:21:05] Obviously divorce coaches, I think are awesome in high conflict divorces, I mean all divorces, but I think high conflict divorces specifically just because you hate to say this, but attorney's fees are going to be expensive in those cases. It's inevitable. It's just the way it is. And I think the more you can kind of work through with an experienced professional on some of the other pieces, not necessarily just the legal pieces It saves you money, it saves you time with me, and it makes the whole process so, so, so much smoother.
[00:21:41] Mm-hmm. Regarding books and stuff, I haven't found one that I love. So if you have some recommendations, I would love to hear that. I love it. . Yeah. So but I, I, that's a question I get often and I, I haven't, I haven't found a specific one that I'm like, this is the one, you gotta do it. So yeah,
[00:22:00] Dr Stef: I, yeah, I'm, I'm on the search too.
[00:22:02] There's no like, One book that has like the manual of divorce and the manual of co parenting. Maybe that's something we'll have to create on. I like it. Yeah, no, I
[00:22:15] Laura Kinde: very much like when I was a sex crimes prosecutor, I had books that I would recommend. You know, kind of survivors read and stuff like that.
[00:22:22] And here I just, I haven't found one that I love. So yeah, maybe we'll have to work on that. Interesting.
[00:22:28] Dr Stef: Everyone does always ask, like they come to someone who's already been divorced and they're like, what do I do? And you're kind of like, well, talk to a lawyer, you know, find a therapist, find a coach, you know, and But there isn't like a one stop shop for like, here's the, the Holy grail of what to expect when you're divorcing
[00:22:50] Laura Kinde: kind of thing.
[00:22:50] It's not that I, not that I've been, and I've, I've read through quite a few and I haven't found one that I'm like, this is, this is good. So that's awesome.
[00:23:00] Dr Stef: Now well, I'll see if anybody. Has put any questions. If anybody has any questions, please feel free to put them in the Q and a what, how can people get in touch with you if they want to you know, talk to you
[00:23:15] Laura Kinde: consult with you.
[00:23:17] Absolutely. Yeah. So our website is Grimaldi and Kendi. com. And I can put that in the chat too. But if you, you know, if you Google us if you go to that website. It's got all our contact information. You know, you can send it right from the website or our specific email addresses are there. I can also put my specific email address and my phone number in the chat too, but just reach out to us.
[00:23:40] We're really, really responsive and we'll get back to you right away.
[00:23:44] Dr Stef: Great. And then and yeah, and anyone can reach out to me too. And I can I can definitely get that information too. All right, we have a question in the chat. Are there top three do's and don'ts you would suggest for high conflict divorce?
[00:24:01] Well, that's a good
[00:24:01] Laura Kinde: question. That is a good question. I think The biggest I'm going to start with the don'ts actually come to mind quicker. Okay. Yeah. I think don't as much as possible. And I know this is hard, but like, get like, get into it too much. As much as possible, kind of leave it to the attorneys to deal with because I feel like that is a very when the divorce is really, really high conflict, if you're able to kind of push it to the attorneys, it just diffuses the situation a little bit when there's not that like kind of side conversation or side arguments going on, but then the attorneys have to find out about and deal with those two.
[00:24:42] I think just leaving it to the attorneys as much as possible is huge. I think don't expect that it's going to happen. Go quick. I think that a lot of people come in and they hear 92 days, you know, in Colorado, 92 days after you file, that's when the divorce can happen. Oh, is that right? I think
[00:25:02] it's going to happen really quickly. And it's not. If it's high conflict, it's going to be long. It is going to be drawn out. Courts in Colorado are still really backed up. You know, they're still kind of reeling from the, the COVID delays and the COVID trial delays and everything. So it's going to take a while.
[00:25:22] So don't expect it to, to go too, too quick. I think the biggest dues is make sure you. Really? And I think this more than any, and I know I've already kind of hit on this one, but I think it's even more important in high conflict divorces is that you have an attorney that you trust and that you really can communicate well with.
[00:25:44] I think if you have a level of distrust with your attorney and then you have a high conflict divorce, that just makes everything seem worse. And I think you have then conflict with your attorney and conflict with the divorce. And it's, it's just, I think, Really spirals. And I think again, I kind of talked about this one a little bit too, but do make sure you have a really good support system.
[00:26:05] And no matter what that is, if it's therapists, friends, divorce coaches whatever it looks like for you, just make sure, you know, you have some support going into it. I don't have three. I've only got two friends.
[00:26:21] Dr Stef: We'll go from there. Well, you know, and I, I, when you said at the beginning, like to just leave it between the lawyers you know, I think that kind of resonates with me and I, you know, we talked about. My approach to co parenting and how, you know, kind of combining the cooperative co parenting and the parallel parenting.
[00:26:42] And I feel like that's kind of along the lines of the parallel parenting where I think you really do need the space away from the other parent away from, you know, that constant. battle that you've had as a married couple. And if you can just give yourself some space and, and quiet time away from the other person and, and yeah, let the lawyers do their thing.
[00:27:06] It's almost the same idea as, as parallel parenting to kind of take that emotional place out of it for the beginning. And And so often we're, we're pushed to do co parenting, cooperative co parenting right away. Boom. You know, you've got, and it's like, how, how are you supposed to do that when you're divorcing a romantic partner?
[00:27:31] There's all sorts of emotions involved because. It's a relationship that's, that's dissolving, not to mention if it's high conflict, there's likely trauma, abuse, verbal, physical, who knows what. And so you're supposed to try to get along with this person. Like, it's not a bad thing. To give that space, right?
[00:27:55] And to have a... I could not agree
[00:27:57] Laura Kinde: more. I could not agree more. And, you know, me and you have talked a lot about how co parenting is not for everyone. It's not for every relationship. And to be honest with you, I think it's actually the minority of relationships that are divorced, you know, kind of families that it works for.
[00:28:12] I think parallel parenting is an option, but I, I think your kind of combination of the two is... Is really kind of the perfect, you know, kind of happy medium for people where they have some of the aspects of both, but, you know, it's not just the full blown co parenting. And I, I completely agree. I think there's so much emotion that's going on in that divorce and then everyone's like, co parent, get along, behave.
[00:28:36] Don't have any emotions in front of your kids, don't have any emotions in front of the other spouse, you know, and that's, that's impossible to do realistic. It's just, it's just not realistic at all. And so I think as much as you possibly can just saying, you know, If your, your partner's coming to you and saying, you know, I want to talk about parenting time.
[00:28:57] I want to get this stuff, you know, figured out just be like, you know, I just really want to leave this to the attorneys and knowing that that probably is going to incite a negative response and in some people, but I think the more you can do it, the more you can set that boundary. It just becomes what has to occur.
[00:29:15] So,
[00:29:15] Dr Stef: yeah, just kind of having that standard response of like, we're going to. Talk about it with the lawyers, let the lawyers handle it. Or, you know, I kind of equate that to, I use talking parents with my ex. And yeah, for the most part, that's all where we communicate. There will be times where we will use texting more for like time sensitive sort of things.
[00:29:41] But but if anything starts to trend in a direction that is not. Friendly back and forth. Usually one of us will be like, we're taking this to talking parents, you know? So that's kind of like the, we're taking this to the lawyer. It's like, we're taking the talking parents.
[00:29:58] Laura Kinde: Yeah, that's a great, that's a great approach.
[00:30:00] Yeah. And talking parents is obviously awesome. I mean, it makes our job a lot easier when we've got, you know, kind of everything in that one, one location that we can get a certified record of, and it makes it much easier for, for purposes.
[00:30:13] Dr Stef: Is that, is that A true thing. I mean, I always heard from my lawyer that like text messages and emails weren't really admissible in court kind of because they can be so manipulated nowadays.
[00:30:27] So that's why talking parents is such a great thing because Like, I can see when he's read it, timed it, you know, it has documentation of, you know, if I uploaded a file and he downloaded the file, you know, then that other person, or me too, can't be like, I never received it. Sort of a thing. Is that, is that true about like the text message email thing or is it kind of.
[00:30:53] Depends,
[00:30:54] Laura Kinde: depends. They are technically admissible. And it's, you know, a statement by a party opponent. Your, your ex is your opponent in, in court. Mm-hmm. . And so it gets to come in you know, into, into the case. That being said, the manipulation, like you said, is. So easy. I mean, text messages, you can delete them in a second and then it was completely different.
[00:31:17] You can literally just go in and like type something different if you want to. So it just ends up being a nightmare for. Attorneys and when something's a nightmare for an attorney, it's going to cost you more because you're going through and you're going to have to compare their discovery with your discovery.
[00:31:35] What's different. What's the same. Are they the same? Do we agree to this exhibit coming in? Do we not, you know, and just really kind of making sure that there's no you know, manipulation of the exhibits. And that's why talking parents is so great. I mean, it's just, there's, there's no ability to change things.
[00:31:52] And so
[00:31:52] Dr Stef: I didn't even think of it as that. The lawyers have to look every little item over and that just. Tick, tick,
[00:32:02] Laura Kinde: tick, tick, tick. Exactly. I mean, most domestic relation courts nowadays, if you don't object to the exhibit up front in what's called the Joint Trial Management Certificate, which is what's basically you explaining to the judge about a week before the case goes to permanent orders, what exactly the issues are.
[00:32:21] If you don't object to an exhibit at that point, it's deemed stipulated, which means it comes in. No matter what. So, and then it's evidence in the case. And so obviously both come in as evidence where you could point to the fact that they're trying to, you know, manipulate something, but you need to know that in order to bring out the judge.
[00:32:40] So when you've got like stacks of text messages or stacks of emails that are printed, you know, because they're going to be flipped on which side they are so they're never exactly the same. It just becomes a nightmare. So talking parents.
[00:32:57] Dr Stef: Yeah, and it's free. So I mean, it's, it's a pain because I do the like the web browser one. So it's not you have to pay to have the app on your phone, but it's free for the web browser one, which is fine. But but yeah, no, it's not as easy as just being able to send a text. But it is so nice when I can be like, okay, I sent it on Friday, he hasn't responded.
[00:33:23] I can, you know, text back and be like, did you get the notification for this email? You know? So it does make it so much easier. And then I feel like both of us are tempered because You don't want to be showing that side of you, theoretically, I'm sure there are some people who it doesn't stop from No.
[00:33:46] Laura Kinde: I mean, I have a case right now where I've got a documented right, you know, I've got a pending like contempt case right now for someone who is just berating someone over talking parents and then that that makes it really easy. You're just like, see. Exactly. Yeah. I'm just like, I literally just had her send me the certified, you know, talking parents record and attached it to my motion and the judge got to just read it all, you know?
[00:34:12] So, and
[00:34:13] Dr Stef: so for that, that's like the berating, do you get like a harassment like, or what?
[00:34:19] Laura Kinde: Yeah, this one's not probably quite criminal. In that regard it's, but it's. It's very much like contempt of court for, you know, not disparaging the other person and being, you know, really, really, really harsh and really inappropriate with someone.
[00:34:36] So,
[00:34:37] Dr Stef: well, and I think, um, there's one more question, but I, I do think that sometimes being in Denver and I don't know what it's like in other places, but that a lot of times. Moms can get pretty discouraged that the parent, the other parent is going to have 50 50, regardless of their behavior, unless there's like true physical you know, documented abuse.
[00:35:08] Do you find that to be true or is that just kind of we're all hearing the the worst stories or, you know, are there ways to. Make it not be so black and white. I mean, I just, I get the sense that Colorado is a father friendly state, but I don't know if that's true.
[00:35:27] Laura Kinde: I think that's true overall. I think Colorado is very father friendly.
[00:35:33] It's got a presumption of 5050 parenting time that you have to kind of prove you have to rebut. So you have to prove why 5050 parenting time is inappropriate. That being said, I think there's, we've had some really good success in getting, you know, less than 50, 50 plans. And, you know, there, it's not always substantially less, sometimes it's 60, 40, sometimes it's, you know, 70, 30, but we, we've had some good success with different ways.
[00:36:00] And I think you just need to be willing to. potentially take the risk on a CFI a child and family investigator, you know, to kind of see what's go, you know, kind of what's going on in the family dynamic and why it's appropriate to do something other than a 50 50 parenting time plan. I think.
[00:36:20] CFIs have gotten some, some bad press recently too and some of them, you know, kind of like I was talking about with mediators, some of them are amazing and some of them aren't great. And I think that's where a lawyer can kind of help and guiding to the ones that, that do do a better job. And that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to come out on your side, but it at least means that they're going to look at the case fairly.
[00:36:44] So I think using CFIs are one way to potentially get a, you know, kind of less than 50 50 parenting time for for dad other, you know, obviously child's wishes if they're older is something that needs to be considered and knowing how to get the, the child's wishes in front of the court, whether that be through a therapist statements, whether that be through child hearsay that's admissible, even though that's usually my, Like least go to because if there's already a lot of conflict in the divorce and mom saying one thing and dad saying another thing, mom coming in and saying that, you know, son or daughter wants to be with her more is really not very compelling.
[00:37:23] But I think, you know, there's, there's different avenues to get that, you know, information across. I think it's possible. I don't think people are wrong in thinking that Colorado is really father friendly and that Denver in specific, it can be really Kind of lean on that 50 50 presumption. So I think there's ways around it.
[00:37:47] And, you know, really being open with not a given, but you have to have true proof of that. And then sometimes really valid concern that can be proven. Documented, documented and proven in court and so it's something to be really you know, open with your attorney about what you're hoping for and why you're hoping for that.
[00:38:12] And you know maybe being reasonable with your expectations you know based on kind of what that reputation is, but also, you know, just really communicating with your attorney what your thoughts are and why you feel that way. Thank you.
[00:38:26] Dr Stef: That's great. Because, and then I would also think that having someone like a divorce coach might help going into the CFIs or the PREs, right?
[00:38:38] So so, because sometimes I do wonder if, if they're not prepared enough for not letting the emotional side get involved in the PRE, that then you do come across to the evaluator as being a certain way that you don't even realize that's how you're being. Like you think you're just protecting your kids and you're telling them what is, when really you're letting your emotional side.
[00:39:11] And try, you know, take over and maybe looking for emotional justice through the P. R. E. And I think working
[00:39:18] Laura Kinde: with a really know, like what to say and what not to say and what to really like lean into and what to kind of maybe just put out there, but not harp on is huge. Because I do think, you know, sometimes I have, you know, moms who are really, really well intentioned.
[00:39:36] Yes. I read their like interview with the CFI and I'm like, you know, so I think yeah, we just don't
[00:39:46] Dr Stef: see it because you've been in it for so long that you just think this is. This is what is and and you're stating a fact this is what happens and so obviously he shouldn't have the kids because of x y and z or whatever where as if maybe you just presented it a little differently right like a little less
[00:40:05] Laura Kinde: emotionally more like factually and then like prioritizing what you have like proof of versus what is just like your opinion of the situation.
[00:40:17] I, I think those are all things that are really important for those CFI interviews. I also think, and I know I've like, I feel like I'm like a broken record on this one, but like communicating with your attorney, all your concerns is huge. I had a case not that long ago where we went through the whole thing and we actually got a pretty good result, but like, like literally shortly after permanent orders, the client told me something and I was like, Wait, why didn't you tell me this like six months ago?
[00:40:47] We don't know, you know, we don't know every detail of your life. And so I think really making sure that you're telling us everything that could possibly be relevant in this case is really, really important. Okay.
[00:41:00] Dr Stef: All right. And then that's great. The one other question is okay, I will do this one and then that one.
[00:41:06] Okay. Would you use talking parents from the beginning of the divorce proceedings? And are there any other options that you have seen work well, like any other options than talking parents?
[00:41:17] Laura Kinde: Yeah. So another one is my family wizard. It's like a different, it's basically talking parents, but some people like the interface a little bit more.
[00:41:25] I've played around with both of them, to be honest with you, I don't see any major differences between the two, but I have one specific client who like swears by my family wizard and hated talking parents. So I think it's just a preference thing. They're very similarly, they're both free for the web browser act.
[00:41:41] They're both paid for the like on your phone app and they're like very, very similarly priced. I think if you know that your divorce is going to have like any kind of element of high conflict in it, I would recommend just using talking parents. And I think sometimes. Doing it from the beginning is an easier transition than, you know, having that moment two months in where everything is so contentious.
[00:42:07] And you're like, well, now we have to go to talking parents because we can't even have a conversation, you know? So sometimes I think just being like, Hey, you know and I have a lot of clients that use the calendar, like the shared calendar as the reason why they're going to switch to talking parents, like, We can, you know, have subjects and we can have the calendar and we can calendar.
[00:42:26] I mean, it might just be in the app. I don't know, or the like paid for app, but there's a calendar that like a shared calendar that you can do. And so I have a lot of clients who use that as a reason for why they should use talking parents or make me the bad guy. Say my attorney says I need to use talking parents, you know, and I was just
[00:42:46] Dr Stef: going to ask, like, let's say you are farther in your divorce and.
[00:42:52] And you do want to switch to talking parents. Yeah. How, how might you bring that up to your, make me the bad guy,
[00:43:00] Laura Kinde: make your attorney,
[00:43:01] Dr Stef: the bad guy said my
[00:43:02] Laura Kinde: lawyer said at this point in the process, you know, we just need to start in this situation there and yeah, push back, then let me go to either, you know, if they're representing themselves, them or their attorney and figure it out.
[00:43:16] Most attorneys are not going to push back on talking parents. Unless they know their client's going to say something crazy. I'm talking parents,
[00:43:23] Dr Stef: right? Yeah. Unless they know they're like,
[00:43:28] okay. And then let's see, the last question was what are some tips to have a good divorce? So I mean, kind of touched on it, like the communication, but but I think, you know, having a good divorce. kind of depends on the other parent and how they approach it. So yeah, what, what would you,
[00:43:51] Laura Kinde: I think that's the really tough part about that question is sometimes I have clients who do everything right and their divorce is still a huge mess and it's not their fault and it's the other party's fault.
[00:44:02] And so I, I think that that's the really tough part. I think the thing you can do that, you know, Whether it leads to a good divorce or not, I think is, you know, communicating with your attorney being open to maybe things not being exactly as you envisioned them, you know, whether it's how the finances are divided or, you know, You know what the parenting time, you know, looks like, you know, maybe just being open to if it's a similar result that it's okay if it's maybe a little bit different than what you had envisioned.
[00:44:41] I think that's the biggest thing that you can do, but I also think just giving yourself some grace and knowing that. It might not be your fault that your divorce is messy and maybe it is partially your fault, but maybe you're sticking up for something that's important or that is you need to be, you know, I, I think giving yourself a lot of grace throughout the process and, you know, knowing that it's going to be hard and knowing it's going to be emotional and there's the, you know, prioritizing what you need to fight for and what you don't need to fight for.
[00:45:11] And What are the things that are no goes? That's one of the, you kind of asked me what I talk about with my clients. And at the beginning I have them tell me, what are your non negotiables? Yes. What are they? And so that I know, you know, what the priorities are and what we, what, you know, when we're kind of constantly balancing, you know, the, if it's staying in the house, that's my non negotiable.
[00:45:36] What do we need to do to make sure that that happens?
[00:45:39] Dr Stef: That's great. You know what, that actually falls right in line with the video that was for this week and the topic that was for this week, which was I call it flow triage, which is learning what's you know, what's an emergency for you, what requires a response, what, what battle you want to pick too.
[00:45:57] And so we do talk about figuring out what your top five values are, what's, what is most important to you that. That you are willing to battle it out for, or not battle it out for. Like, I know for me I was gonna go all in on, on getting Christmas. Like, that was my holiday that my family celebrated. And we, you know, that's like our big family holiday.
[00:46:23] And so for other people, it's probably not a big deal. But for me, I was like, I'm going to do everything in my power to get Christmas and we ended up, like you said, I did have to learn to compromise. And so I kind of get them days around Christmas or, you know, Christmas Eve and, and beyond, but But it took a lot that was my biggest hurdle for myself was to overcome the idea of not being with my, my kids, and my family like every Christmas Eve and Christmas Day.
[00:46:58] Now, I had no idea that it actually worked out great for me. Because I then have to like I have to work every other Christmas in the ER. So, and before I got divorced, I didn't have to. And then once I got divorced, things changed in my work. And it was like, no, you have to do every other Christmas. So I wouldn't have been with them anyway, working.
[00:47:22] So, and I've worked it out. We're like, I work on the Christmases. I don't have them and I don't work on the Christmases. I do have them. So so. Things can work out for you if in the beginning, you're like, there's absolutely no way, you know, I would give into this or anything. So oh my God, my dog. What do you, he's, he's digging on the carpet.
[00:47:41] So so yeah, that's, that's great advice. Let's see. Okay. Here's another. Wow, we're getting some tough ones for you, Laura. What has helped when you have done everything right and the result is still suboptimal?
[00:47:59] Laura Kinde: I think that's when the support system comes in. I mean, you know, whenever, I mean, when you're mediating and you're coming to a resolution, at least you have some control over it.
[00:48:13] If you end up in a permanent orders hearing, you are putting it in front of a judge in a 1 day hearing, maybe a 2 day hearing if you're lucky, and you're putting it all in front of the judge and the judge decides. And so there are situations where, you know, the, the results are suboptimal, are there, you know, kind of the opposite of what we wanted, you know, maybe they're equitable, but they're just not exactly the way that, that every, everyone wanted it to kind of shake out.
[00:48:38] So I think that's when the support system comes into play.
[00:48:42] Dr Stef: Yeah. And I do think that's where like divorce coaches where we can help out too, because we can help you see that. You can figure it out from here. Okay, so now it is what it is. Now, what are we going to do about it from here? Okay, so you can't always plan the outcome, you have no control over the outcome, but you have control over how you respond to the outcome.
[00:49:06] And so that may be where a divorce coach comes in to help you decide how you want to respond intentionally to what's going on legally so that your emotions aren't. You know, overly affected by the legal outcomes and your legal outcomes aren't overly affected by your emotions
[00:49:27] Laura Kinde: and also talking through like what you just explained with Christmas that sometimes you know what seems like maybe not the best outcome in the moment can actually work, you know, in your benefit kind of going forward and brainstorming and talking about those potential outcomes in the future.
[00:49:41] Dr Stef: Yeah, definitely. And I do always think to like well, it may seem like things are completely set in stone and maybe there are things that are fairly set, but there are things that you can do, I think, down the line to, to revise and to, you know, make changes down the road when you feel like this just isn't quite working right.
[00:50:03] Can we go back and make Some modifications and maybe change it up a little bit. Maybe you can, maybe you can't, but at least knowing that there might be the possibility of, okay, let's try this out, see how it goes. And or maybe having like a stepwise plan to things, you know, putting into place like, okay, we're going to try this out for the first.
[00:50:26] And then the second year we'll try this out or, you know, I think there's a lot of creativity that's possible in, in a lot of plans. And, and I think that probably is where the communication with the lawyer comes in with Knowing the specifics of your, your situation and then being creative around it too.
[00:50:45] Laura Kinde: Absolutely. There's, you can always, you know, modify things down the road. If there's a substantial change in circumstances, you know, they call it permanent orders, but none of it, the only part of it that's really permanent is like the financial dissolution. Yeah. Other than that, everything else can be changed.
[00:51:02] I also, you know, and this is not the case for all situations at all, but you know, your parenting plan is going to be your most restrictive you know, kind of plan. And sometimes parents get to a place where they're able to, you know, make changes on their own and agree to those changes and, you know, work for, you know, what's kind of best for their kiddos.
[00:51:22] And sometimes they don't. And sometimes the result we'll have to, yeah. Use their parenting plan for forever and, you know, use it like it's their Bible, but there's, yeah, exactly. There's a lot of,
[00:51:34] Dr Stef: and it is like, we have to highlight and circle and follow it in detail. And like,
[00:51:39] Laura Kinde: and that's great too, you know, but there's like so many different options of things you can do.
[00:51:44] I think knowing that, you know, maybe this is a step along the journey and it's, you know, a setback, but you know, who knows what's going to happen next and kind of what the next step is. Well, it looks like it is almost nine o'clock. Oh my gosh, like that went by so fast. Like really, really quick. So informative, Laura.
[00:52:05] Dr Stef: That was so awesome. Thank you. Yeah. And I'll have your information available for anybody who wants it. And yeah, that was just great. So let's get to work on our book. And then I guess there's a few other questions in here. Well, I'll, I'll maybe I'll pass them on to you. Okay. Perfect. Sounds great.
[00:52:24] Have a good night. You too. Take care. Bye.
